We carry within us the wonders we seek without us.

Sir Thomas Browne

Illumination

62 Comments CherryPie on May 12th 2013

62 Responses to “Cherie’s Place – Thought for the Week”

  1. CalumCarr says:

    Very wise.

    The Lord has given us all we need to carry out the work He wants us to do now. When He wants us to do more He will give us more.

  2. He certainly carried a lot of nonsense within him as do so many, in his case helping two women to be burnt as witches. (“Browne confirmed his belief… in the existence of angels and witchcraft. He attended the 1662 Bury St. Edmunds witch trial, where his citation of a similar trial in Denmark influenced the jury’s minds of the guilt of two accused women, who were subsequently executed for the crime of witchcraft.”)

    Lovely.

    • Sean Jeating says:

      For one reason that is obvious and for one that I do keep hidden within me, I am carrying a colon and a right parenthesis upon my lips.

    • CherryPie says:

      The full testament in the trial is rather more measured than the biased version that can be found on Wikipedia. From ‘A Sample Case’:

      Dr. Thomas Browne, a respected physician who lived relatively close by, testified next. He affirmed that witchcraft existed, specifically mentioning similar events that had occurred in Denmark. Despite mentioning possible medical explanations for the girls’ afflictions, namely “the mother,” Browne noted that the Devil could intensify symptoms. Though he believed that the girls were bewitched, he did not specifically state that Denny and Cullender had afflicted them. Browne testified:

      … That the Devil in such cases did work upon the bodies of men and women, upon a natural foundation, [that is] to stir up and excite such humors, super-abounding in their Bodies to a great excess, whereby he did in an extraordinary manner afflict them with such distempers as their bodies were most subject to, as particularly appeared in these children; for he conceived, that these swooning fits were natural, and nothing else but that they call the Mother, but only heightened to a great excess by the subtlety of the devil, cooperating with the malice of these which we term witches, at whose instance he doth these villanies.

      A link to the sample case:

      http://mythofdesire.tripod.com/possession/id18.htm

      As to lovely… They were not lovely times, anyone who had opposing views to those in authority (the jury is out as to whether that was the Church or the Crown (or both) were deemed heretics and disposed of under various pretenses.

      I wrote about such atrocities here:

      http://cherryelsewhere.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/the-inquisition/

      • Your extended quote makes him sound an even greater nuttter. The little man presumed not only to know about the existence of some “Devil”, but he also presumes to know specific details of what this “Devil” can do. Belief in things we cannot possibly know is the most dreadful and damaging failing and conceit of humanity. Nothing wrong with a bit of speculation about anything whatever, but those people who claim to know about the existence and intentions of invented beings and concepts, so often so conveniently interested in them…? Funny that… Good grief, I do despair. The human mind’s power of self delusion is acknowledged by all (even by those of faith because they so readily assign it to those of other faiths), but only oh so slowly are we growing out of it. In the meantime the burnings and the stonings and the plain damaging continuing corruptions of susceptible young minds do continue.

        • And “as to lovely” – looks to me that life was rather lovely for Sir Thomas Browne while he was pontificating nonsense that apparently significantly contributed to the decision to execute women as witches. A lot more lovely than the life of the poor women who were not witches.

  3. Claude says:

    What a beautiful photo of near-perfect leaves. And such a lovely green. Thank you, Cherie.

  4. ....peter:) says:

    New life Cherie… isn’t is magnificent… wonderful image….peter:)

  5. Ayush says:

    great shot, with the angular view highlighting the lush face of the new leaf.

  6. Ginnie says:

    The wonders and the answers…or so they say! Beautiful, Cherry.

  7. Suzie says:

    You know that people were queuing up to say how wise and wonderful this saying is, and then they read DQS comment and decided that the guy was a jerk! Ergo so was everything he ever said. Of course, that is not always the case, but it is true that it is difficult to recognise wisdom when it comes from bad men.

    So I’ll give this one a miss. It’s a little difficult to make sense of anyway.

    • CherryPie says:

      I think people can decided for themselves whether or not Thomas was a jerk. The quote (in my post) is an isolated thought of his. The abridged quote of what he said at the trial (in DQs comment) is not representative of his thoughts and philosophy.

      I have replied to DQ with a fuller version of what was said at the trial (thanks to a friend for providing me with the link :-) )

      Reading the Eastern philosophies will help with understanding what is meant by the quote (in my post).

      • And I have replied to your reply, for your quote just reinforces and strengthens the problem. My goodness his “authority” was used to suggest he had knowledge of things he could not possibly have knowledge of, and thus, judging from both accounts I have read, his deluded sense of knowledge seems to have been important in sending women to death for witchcraft. It would not really matter, nothing in the past does any more, were it not still happening today, and were the same delusions of knowledge about God or Gods and the Devil or Devils not continuing to do so much damage. No human knows whether superior beings in any spiritual or indeed physical realm exist, or what their nature might be, or whether they give a damn about us. The issue agitates me because the claims to know are not benign. If they were benign I could just shake my head and ignore.

  8. Chrysalis says:

    @DQ true – but then I’m not really surprised by the fact that often the most eloquent people of influence, in history, were also the biggest hypocrites

    Like Thomas Jefferson writing “all men are created equal”, but owning slaves, and Paul writing that there is therefore no condemnation through Christ Jesus (grace) but condemning everyone else on sin, but admitting to not a single obvious sin himself (with the exception of arrogance and some other mysterious “thorn of his flesh”).

    And still, their powerful words contain truth, whether they were able to live up to their own standards or not, yes? :)

    Perhaps he just “forgot” to tack on the phrase, “Much like wisdom, the biggest witch hunt should go on within, rather than without as well” ;)

    • CherryPie says:

      Well… I am not sure Thomas was a jerk, he was asked to provide evidence in court. He provided the evidence, which I have expanded on to give a fuller account of in my reply to DQ.

      It was the Church and or the Crown that were on the ‘Witch Hunt’ trying to suppress anything or any views that opposed their ability to control the people. In those times anyone who opposed their views was deemed a heretic and dealt with in most horrific ways.

      http://cherryelsewhere.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/the-inquisition/

      The final paragraph in my post was posted on the wall of the ‘Museum of Torture’ in Carcassonne. I found it quite thought provoking as I said in the post.

      You have just visited the museum of torture. Do you think all this belongs in the past; alas such things are still used today in several countries, with more modern and evil refinements.

      It is an inevitable result wherever intolerance and fanaticism thrive.

      In every human being there is good and evil. Arrogance spreads evil. Wherever it is found it must be fought by the good. You have just seen the consequences of failure.

      And yes we should all consider our own thoughts and motivations. If we do that honestly it can be quite enlightening and maybe a little scary…

  9. Suzie says:

    People can indeed decide for themselves if this man was a jerk. I could have used stronger terms because, to me, jerk sounds a little frivolous.

    If you think a man who, even in small part, sent women to their deaths is defensible then that is up to you.

    It strikes me, that you don’t have to look too far from here to see fundamentalists talking their talk. I agree entirely that this kind of madness continues today, but I don’t think it is confined to the usual suspects. A couple of days ago I watched a programme on ABC television where two people from different faiths swapped lives for a short while. It was actually (to my horror) the Anglican woman in the midst of the Hindu community who became distressed because she was so sure that her’s was the only way to heaven and the good folk she encountered were destined to go into eternal hell fire.

    If it is arrogant to condemn ignorance and craziness then we need more arrogant people.

  10. CherryPie says:

    Some assumptions seem to have been made about my comments:

    If you think a man who, even in small part, sent women to their deaths is defensible then that is up to you.

    I have deliberately not said what I think about Thomas Browne, I have shown no support or condemnation for him.

    I have however tried to highlight what the real problem is. The State and or the Church trying to maintain their power base. To do that they suppress views that that threaten that power base.

    I mentioned a post of mine that highlights the problem and the barbarity that occurs when opposing views are suppressed.

    http://cherryelsewhere.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/the-inquisition/

    Within that post is the following link, you can search for the term Witch which is relevant to this comments thread.

    http://www.medievalwarfare.info/torture.htm

    Which leads me back to this quote, mentioned above:

    You have just visited the museum of torture. Do you think all this belongs in the past; alas such things are still used today in several countries, with more modern and evil refinements.
    It is an inevitable result wherever intolerance and fanaticism thrive.
    In every human being there is good and evil. Arrogance spreads evil. Wherever it is found it must be fought by the good. You have just seen the consequences of failure.

    The quote in my post however is not about witches, devils, being bewitched or oppression.

    • I know that comment was not a reply to one of mine, but Cherie, re-read your own words, quoted here: “The full testament in the trial is rather more measured than the biased version…”

      We are talking about a trial in which women who were not witches were condemned to be executed for being witches. The man, according to reports read by both of us, gave evidence pontificating ridiculous things he claimed to know and which contributed to the women being executed. You find the testament you quote to be “measured”? I see only bad madness in the words of the man in the testament you quote. Measured testament? Really? “Measured”? in the testament of a trial that decided women were witches. My goodness. Let’s look:

      “He affirmed that witchcraft existed … Browne noted that the Devil could intensify symptoms … he believed that the girls were bewitched, Browne testified:… That the Devil in such cases did work upon the bodies of men and women, upon a natural foundation, [that is] to stir up and excite such humors, super-abounding in their Bodies to a great excess, whereby he did in an extraordinary manner afflict them… [blah blah blah - He KNOWS all this, about the Devil? What a clever man (or lunatic) and so it goes on] … but only heightened to a great excess by the subtlety of the devil, cooperating with the malice of these which we term witches, at whose instance he doth these villanies.”

      Measured?

      • And you said “I am not sure Thomas was a jerk, he was asked to provide evidence in court. He provided the evidence”

        Evidence? Do you really think these ramblings that affirmed “witchcraft existed” and stated his wild views of what the Devil could do were “Evidence”?

        Now you are scaring me.

      • CherryPie says:

        My ‘final’ comment on the issues in the comments thread was a reply to both you and Suzie.

        I did re-read my comments several times before I replied.

        At different eras in time there are commonly held ‘facts’ that are ‘believed’ to be true, such as the earth is flat and the way the planets spin in relation to each other. Both of those views have been changed with advancing knowledge…

        With regards to he was providing evidence. In a trial the prosecution and the defence choose people who when questioned will be able to provide them the result they want. That is how it works, it is not about facts, truth or justice. He was chosen to speak on that basis.

        I refer you back to this quote on my final comment on the matter:

        May 14, 2013 at 9:59 pm

        I have however tried to highlight what the real problem is. The State and or the Church trying to maintain their power base. To do that they suppress views that that threaten that power base.

        The problem is never an individual, it is always much wider than that!

        • Sean Jeating says:

          I am tired to talk about religion. for me it’s organised stupidity.
          Thus, I do just write:
          This was an interesting discourse. And I hope both, Andrew and Suzie, at the end of the day would see that CherryPie’s and their opinion are not that far apart.
          The peace of the night.

  11. “At different eras in time there are commonly held ‘facts’ that are ‘believed’ ”

    Perhaps we can agree then. THAT is the very problem, as much today as ever – people believing that they know things that they cannot possibly know, and using that belief to harm others, even within contexts in which they claim, and doubtless believe, to be doing “good”.

    The Church and The State consist of people. People who perpetuate unwarranted certainties by telling little children they are true, and then some of those those abused become the abusers… The purveyors of false certainty.

    Your Thought for the Week has proved stimulating.

  12. Suzie says:

    Cherie, do you have a coterie of emailers operating within your little blog cluster? Last night I received an email making wild accusations about things I am supposed to have written. Now that is strange and worrying.

  13. Chrysalis says:

    What in the name of all that is sacred and holy is going on in this comments section?

    ;)

    Hmm, Cherie, I think I get you….you’re saying he’s mainly guilty of going along with the church and state to keep himself out of harm’s way, is that right?

    Well, as much as we consider that cowardly, I guess we have to think about what it must’ve been like, back then, to oppose that kind of power – not just to yourself, but your family.

    And speaking of the “world was flat” and people we might consider “spineless conceders”, remember Copernicus’ situation.

    He feared no harm to himself, but when he family was threatened, he was forced to recant his entire theory publicly in court, signing over all his scientific evidence which proved heliocentricity, to spare his friends and family harm.

    BUT…legend has it after signing it away in court, he looked down at the ground, sighed and said…”and yet it moves” :)

    Was Copernicus a coward? Or he didn’t consider the argument worth the injury to his loved ones?

    However – if Sir Browne actively participated in the hunt rather than just conceding to it, then DQ has a point, I think.

    Regardless, I wonder what would’ve happened in this comments section had you just left the author’s name off, Cherie? :)

  14. “Regardless, I wonder what would’ve happened in this comments section had you just left the author’s name off, Cherie?”

    Ha! A very interesting point to ponder Chrysalis. Let’s see…

    I may have just said, “Eh?”

    Or I may have said. “We do certainly have the capacity within us to make our lives wonderful or awful, often, determined simply by what internal attitude we take.”

    OR… I may have said “Why are you quoting than madman Browne, Cherie, whose so called ‘evidence’ sent women off to be executed by men?”

    But we shall never know.

    • And I await next week’s Thought for the Week with interest (and if Cherie prefers me to shut up about it, I will :) )

      • Chrysalis says:

        Well, if you had said those things, I still would’ve laughed (WITH you, not AT you, of course:)

        I think Cherie likes to put herself right in other’s shoes, examining all sides of an issue, trying to figure out why people do what they do and giving them the benefit of the doubt – it’s a gift, really, if you look at it just right? :)

        I don’t think Cherie would ever tell anyone to shut up, she’d probably just want to understand better your very strong personal reaction to this one. (Ok, maybe that’s just me:)

        Whatever the case, I appreciate the stance you took on behalf of predominantly women, who were targeted during this particular (more shameful) piece of history :)

        • It’s still happening, is one of the things provoking me Chrysalis… women being burned and stoned and killed most often on the “evidence” and decisions of men, most often justifying it by what they cklaim to know about some supposed superior diety. Every damn day, actually. Then of course, the ones being killed at birth for being born women… A different issue, but… The shameful history proceeds. I take a walk almost every day through woods and past a spot where three supposed witches and a supposed wizard were burned… and on the other side of our village is a famous monument to a poor young woman burned as a witch. All killed by the beliefs of others.

          • yeah… “deity”… I meant… I can’t even bring myself to spell it right :)

            What the heck’s a diety Andrew? The Greek God of Skinnyness?

            • CherryPie says:

              Thank you both :-)

              DQ you know your thoughts are always welcome, feel free to express them here.

              With regards to the oppression against women which was promulgated by the Christian RELIGION. Religion = Dogma. Exploring the scripts behind the Religions reveals that the teachings have been corrupted. And that brings me back to to…

              The State and or the Church trying to maintain their power base. To do that they suppress views that that threaten that power base.

          • Chrysalis says:

            I feel ya, DQ.

            I was raised fundamentalist, in fact, and became an atheist because of the arrogance, the hypocrisy, the hatred (having returned to Christianity, taking a queue from C.S. Lewis, throw in a little theraveda Buddhism as well) – I was angry with them for years.

            In fact, sometimes I still quote Ghandi, when he said, “I love your Christ, but I can’t stand your Christians”.

            But those types have very little to do with who Christ really was.

            The trick to it is (and as always, do as I say and not as I always do;) not allowing ourselves to become angry, arrogant and as full of hatred as those people, counterjudging them – because that attitude is contagious and most likely, precisely how they got that way in the first place.

            Loving your enemies is no easy feat – and it’s the part that most Christians forget, but all the law of Moses and the commandments hangs on it. (I know I do lol)

  15. Chrysalis says:

    Now y’all git to bed, over yonder cross the pond, it’s late there, there’ll be more time for talkin’ tommorey.

    Don’t MAKE me git ma granny’s flyswatter after ya ;)

    Hugs all around,

    Chrystal

    • Okay Mummy.

      Night night.

      • Chrysalis says:

        If you meant “Mummy” in the ancient, dusty relic sort of way, that’s probably more fitting.

        And I liked your ditty about deities, I get it :)

        All’s well that end’s well. Ya got anything against Shakespeare, DQ?

        Never mind, you can answer tomorrow lol.

        Night all

        Cherie, you may now have your comments section back, lol, sorry, didn’t mean to hijack it :)

        • Am still reading with the torch under the covers Momma, sorry, but no school tomorrow for me (Wednesday being a self-employed aka do what I damn well want day).

          Shakespeare? I like him, but I am sure I’ll be able to dig up some dirt on him if anyone starts quoting him when I’m in a grumpy mood.

  16. Oh. Lovely photo Cherie.

    I almost forgot.

    And the wonder of the new leaf lies within the bud eh? I see what you (maybe) did there.

  17. Claude says:

    I seldom ever read the Thought of the Week. I couldn’t care less about what Tom, Dick, Harry and Jane think. And ditto for all the comments.

    As I said, right at the beginning, thank you, Cherie, for the beautiful photo of the near perfect leaves. Such a lovely green.

    • But surely the whole point of a post entitled “Thought for the Week” is to consider the thought for the week? It is not compulsory, of course. Neither is caring what other people think. I should perhaps try harder at that myself, because it often makes me hold back, and then I get annoyed at myself for doing so. The feelings of others are stern masters sometimes, for those of us who do care. Not caring may be best.

  18. Suzie says:

    Cherie, thanks for the email. If I caused you worry I am sorry, but I am not going to escalate anything and the insults that were contained in the rogue email were all directed my way. If you thought I was having a go at you, you are mistaken. Everybody knows that you are a good person.

    In answer to your question, I don’t know. Email accounts are easily created. I lashed out this morning because the comments regarding the ducking-stool and being burnt at the stake, were more than coincidental. It’s not every day that I get called a witch. Or have a volunteer to do the ducking!

    And no, I don’t believe it was our mutual friend.

    • How strange Suzie. But there are many strange people around.

    • Chrysalis says:

      Hi Suzie – I think I understand why you’re doing this publicly now:)

      Actually, your instincts may be right – I wouldn’t chalk it up to coincidence just yet. There may be a common thread, it’s just not Cherie – which I didn’t interpret your comment to mean, by the way :)

      In fact, I don’t think it’s anyone commenting here presently. I can’t speak for all of us here, but I didn’t take your comment as particularly “witchy”, I understood it. In fact, I think over here you’ll get people that try to understand one another :)

      However, there is another blog we’ve all commented on and not been received well, yes?

      Not the blog owner, but it may be a friend of that mutual friend, who’s been around as of late ;)

      If it happens again, Cherie has my email. I know you don’t know me from Adam, but you’re welcome to forward it to me so I can compare them to some communication I’ve received – I know this person’s communication style very well.

      Regardless, stay calm and try not to react – this person obviously wants to scare and upset you and cause a fight between us all by pointing fingers – due to that perceived “common thread” we have ;)

      Until then, how about we all move on from this and chalk it up to a full moon?

      Okay, it wasn’t, but let’s pretend it was :)

      • Chrysalis says:

        P.S. – I should’ve said “misperceived” common thread that this person imagines we have, as commenters on that other blog

        If you don’t feel comfortable forwarding emails to me, as a stranger, then I would encourage you to turn it over to law enforcement (which is what we would do/have done anyway).

        K, nuff said – this public discussion in and of itself should put a stop to it:)

        • Now I am wishing that my initial comment on the quote had just been, “Eh?” :)

          Expect a concise comment from me on the next one, at most.

          • Chrysalis says:

            No worries, DQ, this isn’t your fault; someone just seized the opportunity to take a dig at Suzie

            • Chrysalis says:

              P.S. – always a P.S. with me :)

              I think it’s interesting, however, that the “friend of the mutual friend” (the other blog we’ve all commented on) was able to obtain Suzie’s email.

              Only the blog owner has them – which explains Suzie’s originally comment questioning the people here, considering the subject matter.

              I’m quite sure Cherie doesn’t give out other people’s emails. And I’m not accusing that other blog owner, I mentioned, of giving them out. I’m just curious as to how it was obtained?

              • Indeed, because there is no active link associated with Suzie, and I, for example, have no idea who “Suzie” is, although several Susan’s or Sue’s or Soosie’s are welcome commenters at my blog from time to time. As for “the other blog” you mention, there are certainly some idiots there (in my ever humble opinion) if it is the other blog that I am thinking of (a place I have now abandoned for good). But idiots will do what idiots do. I published a little letter in the science journal Nature once about impacts on Jupiter and I soon got letters through the post (in these pre-internet days) telling me that I would die very soon because of what I had, supposedly, revealed, because I must be part of some intergalactic conspiracy because of what I supposedly knew. Nutters will find a way to get through, and are best ignored unless they turn up at your door, in which event you invite them in, offer them a drink, and quietly call the police :) As fotr the Intergalactic Conspiracy… I’ll put in a good word for you Chrysalis, so you’ll be alright :)

                • Chrysalis says:

                  Hahaha, I appreciate that, DQ.

                  Perhaps someday the Klingons will join the Federation and then we’ll all have a good laugh, over how they once erroneously thought we were after their dilithium crystals or some such lol.

                  (Wait, is that too close to being left-wing, socialistic of me? Dang, they’re onto my evil “socialist, femnazi” plot! ;)

                  Yeah, well, I used to ignore her, but bullies escalate when you don’t react. Until that “friend of a mutual friend” ended up contacting my work, my friends and even made a call with false allegations to CPS (for which I was cleared of all charges and will be happy to post to my blog the document clearing me for those accusations – but generally, it’s best to ignore her until she reaches that point).

                  Trying to extradite over it was a B—-. However, we’ve since made friends in high places – which is why I wanted to see the email, so that those friends in higher level law enforcement could trace and analyze it, to see if it’s the same person:)

                  Say the word, Suzie, and my boyfriend, Detroit, and I will be happy to pass it along to them, if it becomes a problem.

                  Otherwise, carry on, Enterprise. Live long and prosper lol

                  • The Klingon’s are pussycats who have just received a bad press. They did turn up at my door once but just to try to borrow some sugar for a cup of tea. They ended up staying three weeks because I made the mistake of opening up my booze cupboard, but it was all good fun. With one on each side on my sofa and an arm from each around me they said, “Why are so many people on Earth so unpleasant?”

                    I could find no answer for them.

                    They could do with using some mouthwash though, just between you and me.

                    And with that, I feel I have invaded Cherie’s space on this post at least, quite enough. Over and Out from The Noble Don until the next ‘Thought for the Week’.

                    I can hardy wait.

                    • Chrysalis says:

                      Ah, there now, you see?

                      The pathway to intergalactic world peace can be found in DQ’s booze cabinet.

                      See what happens when we are self-employed and work from home? We make a mess on other people’s blogs.

                      You’re right, what a surprise for Cherie, when she comes home. She’s gonna be like, “All right, which of you made this mess for me to clean up?”

                      Shall we pin it on the Klingons? No, that’d be too much like them.

                      I say instead, we take responsibility for any part of this mess we made and wouldn’t blame her if she erased us all, in this thread and brought out her flyswatter lol :)

                      P.S. – I knew you didn’t have Suzie’s email – I don’t think any of us do, except Cherie as the blogowner and I KNOW she wouldn’t give it out. That leaves the only other common thread blog we’ve all been on, but again, not accusing – hacking’s always a possiblity.

  19. Dalai from Detroit says:

    Hi Suzie,
    This is Chrysalis’s boyfriend, just a quick note.
    Any harrassing emails forward onto law enforcement.Anything can be traced.
    I have no doubt Cherie keeps commenters email safe and secure.
    I can’t speak for other blog owners, and there is also the possibility
    of “would be” hackers and all the more reason to contact law enforcement.

  20. CherryPie says:

    Everyone can rest assured that I would never share any personal information with a third party. So email addresses and private messages etc etc are always safe with me. But you all knew that anyway.

    The reply thread to Suzie’s concerns over the email she received seems to have taken wings of its own. I am not entirely comfortable with the issue being aired publicly on my blog (which is why I emailed my response to the problem rather than reply here). But the comments thread has gone in such a way that I will leave it as it is…

    But can we leave it there now please. If anyone wants to discuss that issue further you know how to contact me ;-)

    @ DQ:
    And the wonder of the new leaf lies within the bud eh? I see what you (maybe) did there.

    At last you notice where my thoughts really were when I posted this ;-)